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#1 karasu-deathman-crew

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 05:41 AM

there is been a rumor or else if ur are manga-ka- or some who love draw anime and u pratice on realism ur artwork got improve alot is that true or not?
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#2 keiichi

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 08:05 AM

Manga style is an exaggeration of realistic style. Regardless what you do, you have to refer back to realistic style to get things right. LIke poses and anatomical studies. I would say, yes. You would improve alot by studying them. Look at those people who like to dive into manga or anime style without prior knowledge of anatomy. It looks off here and there. You can go ask any teacher, they would say 'go learn realistic first, then you can do whatever you want'. True to that. I found it by myself.
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#3 uepu

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 10:07 AM

It's true... if not, the ppls couldn't go further more and got art blocked... learn the realistic one at first, so then you can draw others as well...

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#4 HonooNoKarite

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 10:24 AM

It's true IMO. From what I see mangakas tend to put a little bit of realism into their works and this shows that they have knowledge and skill in realism before drawing manga. Because realism helps someone improve on a lot of aspects, such as body posture and anatomy.First easy steps would be looking at a picture of a person and trying to redraw it until you can independently draw realism figures (or so as how I perceive it).

#5 hell angel

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Posted 22 September 2008 - 12:32 PM

basically I'll say yes and noYes, you will need knowledge of realism in order to get things rightNo, realism is not the key to get you anywhere especially when you're talking about being a mangakarealism is nothing more than just a tool in manga, think learning it will save you in manga is like buying a tablet and think that your drawing skills will be boost by itthere are doujins that I think is way better than well-drawn manga even though countless anatomy problem can be spotted easily on the doujinyour condition is asking yourself to become a mangaka, not just an illustrator or graphic designerthere's a simple question I wanted to ask youyou want to become a mangaka or an artbook illustrator?please make it clear as many people in here has fail to do so *facepalm*
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#6 kiryuu=rekka

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 01:55 AM

He asked a pretty straightforward question. Does practising realism improve your artwork ?Yes. Practising and learning any drawing or painting skill would. Realism is a major thing because it forms the basis of most of the things you'd want to draw in manga. People. Landscape. Animals. Buildings.You can get to better artwork without it if it's not your style and you don't feel like it, but you'll be cracking your head copying things to only gain like 10%-20% understanding. It's a struggle now or struggle all the way to later case.(warning: wall of text approaching)There's a difference in getting a tool and learning a skill.Just buying a Tablet means little because you still need to learn how to use it before you gain any benefit. But when you do master it, you'll find that there are a lot of things you can do better with it.Learning realism is like learning a new language. When you work to master it, your understanding deepens and it'll show in your work. When get to the point where you can get a dynamic pose prepped on paper quick and get it done at 90%-100% of your peak quality, you know you can churn out a lot of good pages fast. Or, well... maybe quality doesn't matter to you, then you can do whatever that gets you satisfied. It's not THE key, but it's a great key to better artwork, which is a major key to good manga.It's easy to say, 'I think this doujin is better than said professional manga'. Maybe it's the art style that you like in particular ? Maybe it's the story ? Those are all a matter of taste, and doujinka can afford to be less than professional.To professional mangaka, they have to fight through stiff competition and jaded readers to get the recognition they need to keep their jobs. Quality artwork is a solid approach to catch attention. People don't like paying for shoddy-looking products or poor worksmanship after all. Quirky artwork like Shin-chan works too, but not everyone wants to walk that path.The question for me is not whether you want to be a mangaka or something else;But rather -how far- do you want to go and -what kind of effort- do you want to put into it.Me ? I'm a half-assed drawer struggling with delusions of grandeur. I dropped out of proper formal art education because I wasn't properly motivated to put forth more effort than studio work and the occasional manga-like drawing. No use on regretting about that, so here I am crawling my way to perhaps someday reach a level where I can say 'Hey, I think I can draw a 20-page manga at the same quality as I wanted'. I'm still barely practising any realism, but hey, I'm struggling all the way there instead of having struggled much earlier ! All this is probably going to just fly over a lot of people's heads, but hopefully it'll at least benefit people who do understand where I'm going with this.

#7 hell angel

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 05:27 AM

what's the difference between drawing with tablet than drawing on a paper with pencil then use erase-able color to color it?Didn't your signature teaches you not to understimate doujinkas? or is it you that dun know where it is from?if realism is a major key in manga, go watch a movie instead, it's more real than manga with realism faces, background and environment
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#8 Naoko Kensaku

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 08:29 AM

Actually, I disagree with Hell Angel's statement that realism doesn't help a lot. *Incoming wall of text disclaimer*Realism helps you to understand how objects WORK in the real world. They give your audience a point of reference and identity. They are also the basic FOUNDATION of your drawings and representations. If there is no realism, one would not be able to understand what the mangaka is drawing or the message they are trying to portray, because no one would understand what you are trying to draw. Take a look at Picasso, for instance. Yes, his drawings are distorted. Yes, they are ugly and not many people would be able to understand it. BUT at the same time, are not the items in his drawings UNDERSTANDABLE? Aren't you able to at least identify when a chair is a chair, a person is a person, etc?Realism makes you understand the difference and relations between the different objects and subjects you draw and illustrate. Once you understand that difference by practising realism in art, you would then be able to apply to your art. Your skills will improve because you have a better understanding, and when you do, how you interpret objects and their relations to each other will be left up to you.Sorry, rant of a Mass Communications student here. Oh, and Hell Angel, realism is a key factor in manga. It's not just in the artwork, but in the story too. Can you name ANY manga that the mangaka did NOT use realism/study realism at all?

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#9 RajRize.J

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 09:05 AM

there is been a rumor or else if ur are manga-ka- or some who love draw anime and u pratice on realism ur artwork got improve alot is that true or not? / honestly and truthfully yes . The question is , how far have u drawn ? . People who reach the top , surely have practised several more times then a normal illustrator . People like those are the one who takes 2 steps ahead . It really doens't matter what and which form u approaching . as i know , the direct question u ask is Will u improve after several tries of practise ? . answer is still yes . But u can't tell much la after a few tries only . And u can tell the differents if u practise for a long term of period =) .

#10 hell angel

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 02:35 PM

Naoko Kensaku>> as you are a writer, let me ask you this, "did writing things closer to realistic gets you famous?", if you unable to express what you really want to express in arts, it's called out of topic, no matter how much realism you put in it, it still called "out of topic in arts"leave realism to newspapers, photographs and movies, they can do a better job than any artist in realism
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#11 Naoko Kensaku

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 03:22 PM

Hell Angel, to answer your question (and go off topic a bit, sorry guys)

did writing things closer to realistic gets you famous?

A review of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire/[url]

I highly recommend reading the Harry Potter novels, and then reading them again. Once you know how the story plays out, it is intriguing to re-read these novels and see how Rowling built upon detail after detail to ensure that the realistic element of the novels stayed intact. That seems like an oxymoron: realistic fantasy, but that is what the Harry Potter novels are. They are about a magical world, but everything is so detailed and realistic that we are allowed to suspend our disbelief in magic and just enjoy.

[url=http://www.amazon.com/review/R1ERK0ZWQUBG0W]For Stephen King's books (from a random review)

Although The Shining was slower than what I anticipated , I found the book to be amazingly realistic. In the 70's Stephen King wrote a horror novel around the ordinary or not so ordinary lives of a family, King develops the characters by letting them reveal themselves through thought.

I do have others if you want, but in general for a writer, just because you write fiction doesn't mean you have to write unrealistically. Even though your setting and your characters are wacky or unusual, it does not mean you can have them acting in an unrealistic manner.Hell Angel, realism works to convey the message of the creator to the reader. It is an essential tool. If the mangaka cannot express the message well in the first place, no technique will help them. On that point we both agree. What I don't agree with you is you dismissing realism completely as irrelevant in your field of manga and fiction.

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#12 hell angel

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 04:20 PM

...That seems like an oxymoron: realistic fantasy...

I see, werewolves, flying with broom, hollows, magics, fantasies and dragons are real in your world, good for you
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#13 Naoko Kensaku

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 04:37 PM

*Shrugs* A literal fool is a fool nonetheless. To each his own opinions then. BTW, you never answered my questions about mangaka who DON'T use any realism/studied realism.

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#14 hell angel

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 04:41 PM

I answered you already, just that you don't get itwonder who's the fool here
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#15 Naoko Kensaku

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 05:00 PM

Hell Angel, no you never did. Please, quote the section where you said you did. Oh, and you merely asked me to name a writer who became successful using such realism as a technique in their writing. You never mentioned if there was a need for any certain genre. Would you like to continue this over PM? I think if we continue it here, this will make the thread even more off-topic.

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#16 hell angel

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 05:22 PM

geez, why in the end I have to repeat everything that I said before?

Postby hell angel on 22 Sep 2008 12:32 realism is nothing more than just a tool in manga

Postby hell angel on 23 Sep 2008 14:35"did writing things closer to realistic gets you famous?"

Postby hell angel on 23 Sep 2008 05:27if realism is a major key in manga, go watch a movie instead, it's more real than manga with realism faces, background and environment

Postby hell angel on 23 Sep 2008 14:35 leave realism to newspapers, photographs and movies, they can do a better job than any artist in realism

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by Naoko Kensaku on 23 Sep 2008 17:00 Oh, and you merely asked me to name a writer who became successful using such realism as a technique in their writing. You never mentioned if there was a need for any certain genre.

strange, I never ask you to name any author
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#17 kiryuu=rekka

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 06:13 PM

Man, we're completely missing all the right points here, aren't we ?(Warning: Return of the Wall of Text !)Studying realism here does not mean that you're going to make all your artworks into Realism works (man, I'd rather be doing Impressionism). It means you're studying about the real objects you want to draw and learn what exactly is it that you are going to want to streamline, stylize and adapt into your final work. Learning those action poses ? Dynamic perspectives ? Backgrounds ? The right color and contrast for lighting ? When you want to draw this old man that you imagine is -this- kind of unique character in your head but can't find some other old man character to copy off and need to make something original ?These don't come from nowhere. Sure, we can study through established artists' artworks but a lot of things get lost in between. "Why is this artist mixing blues into the skin shadows but he's mixing reds into the cloth's shadows ?! It sure looks prettier, but I don't get it ! Why do the folds on this guy's clothes look so stiff when the others' look softer ?! Oh well, I'll do it too !"This goes into writing too, because no matter how fantastical you get, people like some common sense and things to relate to in their reading to balance the suspense of disbelief. You wanna write about some serious civil war in a magical world ? When there's a scene where official negotiations for peace takes place, seasoned readers will expect actual negotiations with all the right atmosphere and good reactions from the characters pertaining to the setting. Even if unexpected events do occur. Unless you're turning this into comedy, readers with some knowledge and common sense wouldn't want to see characters passionately acting out of character. Why is Harry Potter realistic fantasy ? Because on one hand it carries your typical fantasy elements like magic and fantastical creatures, but on the other hand the setting makes it so that all these exist alongside a replica of our real modern world. Magic is fantasy ! But magic being taught at a big boarding school in classes with appropriate subject teachers and extra curricular clubs is something that we real people can relate to. Balancing interest and realism pertaining to the setting is what makes good fiction good.Oh, maybe you're saying "All these complicated things don't mean anything to me ! I just wanna do doujinshi and be awesome !". Well, then, go ahead, you'll eventually pick up some of these things if you keep going forward. Whenever there's trial and error, learning takes place.

what's the difference between drawing with tablet than drawing on a paper with pencil then use erase-able color to color it?Didn't your signature teaches you not to understimate doujinkas? or is it you that dun know where it is from?if realism is a major key in manga, go watch a movie instead, it's more real than manga with realism faces, background and environment

Since you sound so serious about the first question, I'll give a serious answer. A Tablet lets you use an object that's very much like the pencils and pens that we artists are so used to... to do art with programs like Photoshop on the PC. From there you can do a lot of things. Pressure sensitivity makes it so that you do controlled and varied strokes like you do on paper with a brush, marker or pen. For people who won't want to get into the mess of physical inking or wet colors, this an advantage.. plus the paper doesn't get ruined when you keep erasing. You can of course, keep using the mouse as I found that it's still completely usable for many things while working in Photoshop, especially when you've built techniques to using it for several years. I hope this is understandable to you so I won't have to say "Go try using a watercolour brush, a pencil and a marker and explain the difference !" Besides, 'Erasable Color' is a huge convinience when you've been struggling with watercolours and pencil colors no ? :VAs a person who was first intrigued about Type-Moon because he heard when the Tsukihime anime first came out that it was based on an eroge by a doujin group, I'm very much aware about how good doujin maker works can be. That does not mean you can happily go "Lol if they can do it with this kind of quality ! I can replicate their success too !". ZUN created a series of shoot-em-ups that got popular for various reasons. Even more respectably, he does it alone. Interesting/challenging gameplay(the spell card danmaku are works of art in their own right !), good music, memorable characters and a setting that quickly gain a huge following. The success booms even more when fans start derived doing works of their own. His art.. well, it has gotten a little better. What you fail to see is for every ZUN, Type-Moon, French Bread and 07th Expansion out there, there are multitudes more that fail to impress outside of their own doujin community. Besides, the point of my previous comparison is that because they are doujinka, who mostly do this for themselves and their doujin scene(because they have their own jobs or being a student or being NEET), they don't need to uphold the same artwork standards demanded of a professional that needs to keep his job.By the way, watching movies really would help, since screen composition and shot angles are things that you would want to absorb to make interesting manga pages.At any rate, this is as far I'm willing to argue with someone who seems to hold the opinion of "No ! I don't freaking need this ! Really ! I'm telling everyone this is useless !", which I don't mind all that much really, just don't be claiming to everyone that your opinion is the holy grail.The only real point I would like to make is that people should examine how far they want to go into this(is this a hobby, something you do for fun or do you plan to be a pro make a living off it ? Even then, do you just want to get your stories told through your favourite medium or do you want to be really good at it ?) and how much time and effort are you willing to put into this(maybe you have all the time in the world and have the hard working attitude to do anything ! or maybe you can't afford to devote too much of your time into this because you're still doing education or trying to carve out a living through other work ?)

#18 Naoko Kensaku

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 06:54 PM

Thank you, Kiryuu.

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#19 RajRize.J

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Posted 23 September 2008 - 11:46 PM

hell angel . Ur sarcasm is rather rude . U wanna help , stop this at once . Give a direct and frank answer . Naoko has given her point , and u refused to answer to her point . If u don want to , remain Silence , or Answer to her with proof and ur reason , this is a discussion thread , personally sarcasm will nvr be tolerated in a discussion . u have done more then once sarcasm , now choose wisely , speak like civil adult , or nvr speak in this thread again .. realize your place .

#20 Firnheledien

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 05:39 AM

To bring this back to the original topic:I get really excited when I see manga/anime leaning more towards realism (e.g. Monster). I don't know why, but it just makes the characters seem more believable, especially if the facial expressions are well drawn/animated.Realism can bring manga/anime art to a higher level IMHO. And it is definitely more labour-intensive as well. But I enjoy drawing more realistic art as it makes it seem more tangible and relatable to me. Hence why I tend to realize my favourite characters.

#21 karasu-deathman-crew

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 06:02 AM

wow i never thought it can go this fari have been pratice realism all turn to be good expect for eye they dosent look like real eyes more too anime kinda style (big eyes)
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#22 Ciku'nk

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Posted 26 September 2008 - 07:56 PM

i also agree with Naoko Kensaku....because at the first i also think the realism its nothing if u wan to become manga/illustrator/watever related to anime...because they study it use the realism as their subjeck matter then transform it become manga/anime style....i notice it when i enter the fine art department and its help alot cause u ill able to draw the think more perfecly and looks life...like the leaf texture etc...its also same in the anime style...now most artist were likely try to make their work looks abit realism

#23 toushirou10

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 12:57 AM

interesting topicof coz! practice realism artwork will improve your drawing skill, like method of applying colour~but I think....realism is learn from the begining, which is the basic of drawing, many manga artist actually done many realism artwork, if you attend a drawing class you have to do realistic artwork practice before you go to advance/"compose site" (which means cartoon/anime style)

#24 Lutherniel

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 11:55 AM

Realism is a something fundamental in art. Good fundamental = improvement in drawing skills - regardless whether its manga or something else. Those without understanding of it usually have obvious mistakes in their work making it crappy.

#25 polychaete

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 02:34 AM

I agree with Luhterniel. People learn to draw real objects first to get a good grip on the fundamentals of art. (Tone, form, line, colour, pattern, composition, etc.) And you learn the basics of art so you have a CHOICE. After you know all the basics, then you can have the freedom to CHOOSE which techniques you want to use instead of being trapped in the same style and the same boring techniques.

If realism is a major key in manga, go watch a movie instead, it's more real than manga with realism faces, background and environment

But then again, I agree with at least a little of what Hell Angel said. You don't need to add realism to a manga (or any piece of art) to make it look good. You just need to apply the techniques that you learned from all the studies that you did to make an attractive piece of art. Constantly drawing something realistic is to practice with your hands and to train your eye to pick out details. And there are also some things that you can't just learn from observing real life. Look at these two pictures by Hokusai:Posted ImagePosted ImageYou will never see a wave like this. Real life is never as vivid as this. Even if it is inspired by nature, it is obviously not realistic at all, but few can beat the use of colour of Hokusai. You can draw all the waves that you want, but you will never learn the same lessons about composition and colour that you can get from these paintings.So in short, learning how to draw is a combination of learning from nature and learning from other artists. (There may be other sources, but I'm tired and I can't think of anymore right now...) But to say that you don't need to know how to draw realistically is just handicapping yourself.

what's the difference between drawing with tablet than drawing on a paper with pencil then use erase-able color to color it?

Obviously you have never tried oil paints before...I got plenty of points about this, but it'll put everyone to sleep so I'll just give you one: The tablet makes it too easy to get rid of your mistakes. Press ctrl-Z and the problem is gone in less than a second. When cleaning up your mess is that easy, you get used to making mistakes and you don't spend enough time reflecting on them. At least a pencil requires you to take some time and effort to rub it away, and even then there may be scratches left on the paper to remind you of what you did. With a pencil, you have some time to learn a lesson and you have to confront your own failure, which is not always the case with a tablet.Call me old fashioned, but personally I think that people should hold off getting a tablet until they learn how to control their hands properly.
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#26 Pepper

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 06:55 PM

okaylet's seeTo me yes once you can master realism, you're pretty much good in anime..the thing about drawing realism is that you tend to pick up certain "details" for example fingers or hips or maybe butts..ANime however are just mostly exageration and minimalism that you tend to ... missed out a few things here and there, you can compare two artist, the one that studies realism and the one that didn't rely on realism..the one based on realism have much more stable foundation while the one didn't ... well he or she will depend on luck and i hate to see people depends on luck.like for example someone i knew can draw pretty face but the body is screwed up if you get what i meanEdited by Mod: Let's keep the forum family friendly, shall we? =)

#27 karasu-deathman-crew

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Posted 16 October 2008 - 06:22 PM

i agree with polychaete about tablet i have test it before and found a lilbit hard to use thefore u must make control ur hand
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#28 snowangell88

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Posted 18 October 2008 - 08:33 PM

it's true...in some ways drawing manga can impreve your sense in realism...but in some ways it's a lilttle bit too muchbut basically..you just need to practice a lot that all..and never be afraid to play with colours..just mix them and play with it.and it'll apply to pencil sketching too....the shadow play will come in really handy once you get used to it

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#29 kumaTARO

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 05:13 PM

I get pepper's point on the body figure being fucked up XD It is very true. Realism gives you a real big advantage when you want to draw manga-style. Take it, for example when you want to draw the background. Who wants to see a poopy fake background and a house that looks like a mound of jelly? I'll say, if you have mastered realism, you can start drawing mangas confidently.
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#30 cyanida

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 05:25 PM

I believe understanding the form and foundation is the backbone of drawing.Your understanding of the structure, as well as the feeling is the most important of them all.